Hitchens, Franklin, and Our Sundered America
That would be Christopher and Benjamin, respectively.
—Maclin Horton
October 17, 2005 by Daniel Nichols
Hitchens, Franklin, and Our Sundered America
That would be Christopher and Benjamin, respectively.
—Maclin Horton
Posted in Uncategorized | 13 Comments
WPThemes.
Daniel Nichols~
I wasn’t around in the C&T days…
Tell me, did the magazine share the same contempt for America as this blog often does? There seems to be a ‘circle of friends’ and ‘circle of blogs’ that share a similar… “tone”.
Just curious… still figuring this C&T thing out/wondering what I was missin’.
Justin N.
(the above comment was not necessarily placed there to be related to the post associated with it, but meant as a rather ‘general’ inquiry).
Still, the fact that your comment is attached to my post makes it seem that I suggested your question, which distresses me a bit. Actually I thought as I was finishing up that entry that I should have added a note that Franklin’s contributions in the sphere of practical politics were enormous and enormously valuable. Should go without saying but I guess it doesn’t necessarily.
Just speaking for myself, I have a great love for America, and though I also think we as a nation are slightly cracked, “contempt” is the wrong (wrong, wrong) word for what I feel. If you’re interested, click here for another aspect of my views on the subject.
As my attitude toward the American Thing is generally more critical than Maclin’s [but less than Tom’s], let me- the moderate- address your remarks.
First, it depends on how you define “America”.
Generally people don’t mean the geographical entity, or even the people of this part of the continent, both of which I love, or even the political tradition of constitutional democracy, parts of which I love, but rather a certain ideology, expansionist and arrogant, that sees this nation as more or less Chosen, and with the duty to spread our way of life to other nations, even by force. It approaches being in truth a sort of religion, and for all its talk of freedom it is extremely intolerant of those who question its presuppositions.
For that I do have contempt.
And I believe that you and Sia received as part of your wedding gift a near-complete set of CT back issues; if you want to know what it was all about I suggest you dust them off. :)
[Justin is married to my dear friend Sia, daughter of CT contributor Will Hoyt and his wife Dru.]
Wait’ll Daniel finds out some impostor is out here trying to portray him as a “moderate”…
Mr. Horton~
I had a conversation today with somebody more familiar with the publication C&T and this blog, and it brought certain things to light.
I should be more respective of the diversity among the contributors here–something I lack in being less familiar with C&T, with “personal acquaintances” and “the blog” being my only real points of reference.
Given that, I occasionally see all the threads as “one long thread”, which, again, is a fault of my own. I am disturbed sometimes by the seemingly knee jerk disdain I see here (and other places where certain C&T associates post their words of wisdom) for America.
I will develop this more later tonight, perhaps.
Daniel~
I DID NOT KNOW THAT WE GOT ALL OF THE BACK ISSUES OF C&T!?! I would LOVE to read them all. I am going to have to have a ‘discussion’ with my wife about where those might be. :) (Justin, happy now!)
More later, perhaps.
Sorry for any confusion.
Justin
In the short time I’ve been visiting here, I’ve made an attempt to read as many posts as possible. While I can’t presume to speak for the posters, I have to say I don’t see “contempt” for America. I see contempt for the values (or lack thereof), injustices, and general direction America is heading, but not for America.
I’ve always found this to be one of the true beauties of Christianity and in particular Catholicism. It gives you the opportunity to hold certain beliefs without risking hypocrisy. Contempt for aspects of American culture, yet still loving America, as Daniel and Maclin have defined it, is akin to hating the sin yet loving the sinner. Daniel, can say “I’m more saved then American” and uphold the tenet of putting God before all else. We can decry policies and politicos that support the death penalty, abortion, unjust wars and euthanasia while clinging tightly to a respect for all life, including those supporting our opposition. I have to wonder if the perception of contempt comes from America being defined by the things I’ve mentioned. A sad and scary thought if that’s the case.
I type these things as someone who usually falls more on the conservative side of issues then your general C&T contributor. I think Justin hit on an important point when he mentioned the posters being diverse. Even with issues on which we agree, Daniel and I often approach them differently with a different tone. Since we can rule out genetics, I attribute it to us growing up in different eras. Unlike Daniel’s youth, the most pressing concern of my formative years was ridding the world of Disco.
Now there–ridding the world of disco–is a project upon which, surely, all men and women of good will can agree.
I was thinking last night: perhaps a distinction between America and Americanism is in order.
Of course the lad grew up with a hippiebrother a decade older than himself, who must have looked and acted pretty bizarre. I can’t help think that besides ridding the world of disco, a major factor in our differences was his thinking “Man, whatever I do I am NOT going to be like that!”
Really Daniel it was more like: “Ok, now I know I can’t get away with THAT!”
Make no mistake; I was influenced by your presence. I don’t know of another first grader that had to be consoled by his teacher because he was certain Paul was dead. Or, knew the words to most Beatles songs, a good chunk of Dylan songs, and a few from the Stones. In fact, exposing me to good music was probably the driving force behind my Disco crusade.
I like that distinction Maclin. I think it clarifies things a bit.
I had some related thoughts on this issue, which I have posted at my blog, since they are long-winded and meandering.
bnaasko.blogspot.com
Well I’m glad I wasn’t just a bad influence; to me disco was the death knell to the counterculture, the moment when all the worst aspects of hippiedom- drugs, loose sex, do-you-own-thingism – took hold in the mainstream culture, while all the good, idealistic things croaked, along with the good music.
[Except for yogurt, sprouts, cotton clothes and a generally more benign approach to the natural world, which also seemed to take hold in the mid 70s.]
By the way, do you realize that I entered adolescence in 1965 and graduated from high school in 1971, pretty much coinciding with the most creative period in rock/folk/whatever it was/ music?
And Maclin is right on [now there’s an anachronistic term] about the distinction between America and Americanism. Americanism actually was declared a heresy by the Vatican in the late 19th century. Of course the Americanists denied that they were Americanists, unlike, say the courageous Arians and Nestorians and Catharists, and it pretty much blew over, though the thing itself remains.
Actually, in 1976 [the year of the Bicentennial] I was totally disgusted with America. I possibly did have contempt for the whole country. My life had unravelled, the country had unravelled, and I had become disgusted with the counterculture and with politics.
In this mood I undertook a hitch-hiking trip across the USA, staying on the backroads.
On this journey I providentialy met many good, earthy Americans, getting to know them in a way that only other hitching veterans would understand. Back then hitch-hikers would get rides from a pretty broad spectrum of people, something I doubt very much could occur today. Families, old ladies, young women, truckers, you name it.
It is amazing how people will open up when sitting in an enclosed and moving space for a few hours with a complete stranger.
In the end, I fell in love with America again, without the illusions that the patriotism of my childhood contained.
In spite of the craziness and destruction of the last 30 years, I think that love endures.
It may even explain my anger at what the thing has become.