I can’t decide which commentators are more frustrating: the ones who see this as a Muslim insurrection, pure and simple, or the ones who see no element of that at all, and can’t bring themselves to describe the perpetrators of the violence as anything more than "youths" (or maybe "unemployed youths"). The ones who pronounce France as effectively conquered, or the ones who think social programs are the answer.
As best I can tell, though, one outcome that seems possible or even probable is the recognition of areas of France as being self-governing by Muslim councils, and that’s disturbing. Opinions?
By the way, I put "riots" in quotes because that doesn’t really seem to be the right word after–what? twelve days?–even if "insurrection" or "intifada" may be overstatements.
–Maclin Horton
I’m not sure how much any of us who are familiar with the situation only through news reports can really say on the matter. On the one hand, the reported poverty of the Muslim youth seems a reasonable catalyst, though I don’t see how it explains the entire phenomenon. The demand for what is effectively Muslim self-rule might remove the French police as a source of irritation, but it cannot remove the problem of poverty. It is a demand, however, in keeping with the absolutist claims of Islam. It may be that other factors have served only to awaken the true spirit of Islam — which is a religion that brooks the existence of no other and uses violence to achieve its ends.
Whatever the final analysis is as to the causes and exact nature of the what is happening in France, I think what’s happening underlines the danger of allowing large concetrations of Muslims within what is, at least, a dying Christian society. Islam is still very much alive whereas Christendon, in Europe at least, is weakened and expiring. Even if the Faith were vibrant in Europe, it would be perilous to introduce into a Christian nation large populations of those professing a religion that is a positive and professed enemy to the Faith. How much more perilous is it when the Christian society is in its death throes?
Excellent points. Someone sent me this link to a Pat Buchanan commentary, to which I replied:
“I think he’s absolutely right about the big picture. As I’m sure you know, a lot of people have been warning about this for a long time. What’s news to me is how far along the process already is, and the immediate questions on my mind are how far it’s going to go and how much if any actual structural political change is going to be the fallout. I mean, are we looking at something approximating independent Islamic statelets within France? That’s big, and sooner than I would have expected.”
A further note: I have not read or talked to anybody, right, left, or center, who knows anything about France and doesn’t think the French have a major problem with just plain old racism. And the economic problems are obviously quite real. So I do tend to think those who are leaping immediately to the conclusion that this is jihad are mistaken, but obviously it presents a situation which could be very successfuly exploited by Islamic radicals.
Christopher Zehnder’s points were precisely correct, I think. Pat Buchanan did indeed make some good points, but they were overshadowed by his silly comparison of Moslems to Hispanics.
I agree with Herr Storck in regards to Buchanan’s reference to Hispanic immigration. It is an abstraction: as Muslim North Africans are to the French, so are the Latin Americans to Anglo Americans — therefore, the situations in the United States and France are equivalent. It ignores a number of concrete circumstances, not the least being that Mexicans are a Western people (and, I would say, more truly Western than the white folk I run into daily here in the “occupied” Southwest — and their food is a h**l of a lot better, too!) And, except for those living in the conquered Southwest, when were Latin Americans the subject peoples of the United States?
As for French racism — a friend of mine suggested that the French attitude is not so much racism as it is one of cultural superiority, which I don’t think is the same thing. This friend also suggested that it must be unbearable for foreigners in France always to be treated with such disdain.
As I was typing in the comment above, several hours after reading the Buchanan piece, I kept having the feeling that there had been one thing in it that had struck me as seriously out of whack. The Hispanic thing that y’all mention was it. I don’t think the two situations have all that much in common, either, except in really broad terms (immigrant tensions etc.).
Not even that, as the Spanish were in the Southwest long before the Anglos. We are the immigrants.
I have come to have a certain respect for Mr Buchanan as he has broadened his views from conventional conservative to a more prolabor populism, but his anti-Hispanic thing is appalling: these are Catholics for the most part, for heaven’s sake.
Of course the party line is there is nothing anti-Hispanic in this at all, that all they are opposed to is illegal immigration, but I don’t remember a lot of outcry about the illegal Irish immigrants in NYC, which was prevalent before that nation’s economic revival in recent years…
Well, I agree with Buchanan and others that the current levels of illegal immigration from Mexico are a real problem (a whole ‘nother discussion), but for all the reasons pointed out above it’s not at all the same situation as Europe’s with regard to Muslims.
Further: when Buchanan talks about Hispanics, it’s a bit like when he talks about Jews and Israel. There’s just an edge to it, like when certain Anglicans talk about Catholics, that makes you feel like there’s more hostility there than is strictly warranted by the situation.
Interesting bit of commmtary I read the other day about the French riots; wish I could remember the pundit’s name.
He said the main cultural influence on the North African and Arab rioters is….American rap “gangstas”. Seems that rap has taken off in the French ghettos just like it has in the American ones. He cited several French/North African rap artists and gave examples of some of their lyrics [saying that most are unprintable in a newspaper]; very violent and sexist stuff. Apparently gang hand signs were common in pictures of the riots.
I think I’d prefer Jihad…
The pessimistic but frequently accurate Theodore Dalrymple has mentioned this, too. Unlike some of the commentators he’s spent a bit of time in these areas and speaks French, so has heard this stuff for himself. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the name you can’t remember.
If he’s right, those who are reading the riots as being in fact jihad are pretty off-base, but one of his points is the ease with which such levels of hostility can be transferred and used for violent religious extremism.